Used Fmb Band Saws (Manual) for sale (22,145)

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1995, Available immediately ex works: Hydraulic horizontal band saw automation machine, Jaespa Type W 320 AZ – 6 Year of manufacture 1995 Cutting capacity: 320 mm round / 90 degrees Cutting capacity: 320 x 320 mm rectangular / 90 degrees Band speed, infinitely variable: 15 – 110 m/min Drive power: 4.9 kW Pode Aa Iibjpfx Abujgu Cutting lengths: 5 – 9999 mm Complete as shown in the picture, including all powered roller conveyors Weight: 2.2 tons Price: EUR 2,750.00 plus VAT, ex works

Condition: good (used), Used band saw from Bewo Pjdpezvyf Aofx Abusgu Model MOD 250 Capacity 200 x 250 mm Manually operated

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2026, CORMAK S200R Manual Metal Band Saw The CORMAK S200R metal band saw is designed for both single-piece and series production. With the ability to perform angled cuts from -45° to +60°, it is an ideal solution for cutting pipes, profiles, and solid materials. The construction based on a massive cast-iron arm and a precise blade guidance system ensures high cutting accuracy and repeatability. The feed is gravity-controlled by a hydraulic cylinder with smooth descent adjustment, providing a controlled and efficient cutting process. Main Advantages of the Machine Solid cast-iron construction increases machine durability and cutting accuracy. Wide angle cutting range from -45° to +60° thanks to the rotating arm design. Blade guides with carbide inserts and bearings ensure straight cutting and extended blade life. Gravity feed controlled by a dual-chamber hydraulic cylinder provides smooth and precise cutting. High level of operator safety thanks to limit switches, micro-switches, and an emergency stop button. Automatic stop after completing the cut and blade break protection function improve safety and reliability. Construction and Technology The machine is built on a rigid steel base equipped with an integrated coolant tank and circulation pump. The saw arm is manufactured from a single cast-iron casting, significantly improving stability and vibration damping during operation. The drive system uses a three-phase motor with two blade speeds (36/70 m/min) selectable from the control panel. The arm inclination of 25° relative to the base extends blade life and improves cutting quality. Pgjdpefy Ttiofx Abuou Precision and Work Efficiency High cutting accuracy is achieved through the cooperation of carbide blade guides and rolling bearings, ensuring precise blade alignment. Maintaining optimal blade tension improves cutting efficiency and reduces the risk of failures. The automatic stop function after completing the cut eliminates operator errors and increases workplace safety. The combination of a rigid structure, precise blade guidance, and controlled hydraulic feed guarantees reliable performance in demanding applications. Applications The CORMAK S200R metal band saw is ideal for: industrial production plants, metalworking and fabrication workshops, steel construction companies, maintenance departments. The machine enables precise cutting of: carbon steel, stainless steel, tool steel, closed profiles, solid metal sections. Standard Equipment Mechanical quick-clamping vice Hydraulic cylinder with smooth descent adjustment Blade cleaning brush Coolant pump with closed circulation system Length stop with measuring scale Optional Equipment Material feeding roller system Technical Specifications Parameter Value Machine type Manual metal band saw Cutting method Gravity feed Blade speed 36 / 70 m/min Cutting angle range -45° to +60° Vice type Manual Saw blade dimensions 27 × 0.9 × 2910 mm Motor power 1.8 kW Vice base height 890 mm Minimum cutting diameter Ø 5 mm Minimum material length in vice 30 mm Machine dimensions (L × W × H) 1600 × 800 × 1400 mm Weight 500 kg

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2016, cutting diameter 300 mm capacity 90 degrees: flat 320 x 290 mm capacity 45 degrees: flat re 300 x 280 mm capacity 45 degrees: round re 300 mm capacity 60 degrees: flat re 190 x 200 mm capacity 60 degrees: round re 200 mm capacity 45 degrees: flat li 270 x 200 mm capacity 45 degrees: round li 270 mm turning speed range: 20 - 100 m/min saw band length 3660 x 27 x 0.9 mm power capacity 2.4 kW weight of the machine ca. 650 kg range L-W-H 2050 x 1170 x 1600 mm Current list price: approx. 15.000 euros Special price available upon request Features: - Semi-automatic electro-hydraulic band saw (INDUSTRIE) - Suitable for single-piece and small-batch production - Large, ball-bearing-mounted cast-iron turntable * For miter cuts from 45° left to 60° right - Hydraulic feed mechanism Material clamping Podszv Ul Dopfx Abuegu - Ergonomic control panelâ??front right, swiveling - Coolant system - Operatoration manual * Semi-automatic work cycle: After the cycle starts, the vise closes automatically, the saw frame lowers for the cut and automatically raises back to the predefined starting position once the cut is complete. Afterward, the vise opens.

Condition: good (used), functionality: fully functional, total height: 1,850 mm, overall weight: 250 kg, Equipment: motor brake, Band saw PANHANS, max. cutting width 400mm, including several saw blades. Pedpfx Absz Tfcmeuegu

Condition: used, Automatic Horizontal Bandsaw Year: 2011 Serial Number: 11042134 Model: LX – 460AE Blade Size: 4770MM x 41 MM x 1.3MM Hydraulic Cutting Capacity: 460MM x 430MM Psdpfxeydv Rre Abuegu

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2020, Technical details: dimensions of saw-band: 2.880 mm throat: 356 mm workpiece height: 205 mm max. table load: 150 kg table - inclinable: 12/15 li+re 8/8 vorn/hinten Grad band speed: 20 - 80 m/min table height: 990 mm Table dimensions: 500 x 500 mm motor capacity: 0,75 kW machine weight approx.: 275 kg dimension machine approx.LxWxH: 0,85 x 0,60 x 1,74 m Podpfx Abs Af Hvksusgu *

Condition: new, Model Name Pjdpfx Asgvkchobujgu Shark 281 CCS

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2006, functionality: fully functional, STENNER MHS9 MK2 HORIZONTAL RE SAW LINE. This complete 9 head line comes with 12 metre infeed and 8 metre outfeed. Tilting heads which are ideal for Feather Edge board production 915MM diameter wheels Max width blade 100MM Saw speed 35M/S Max width timber 305/450MM Max height 305MM Main motors 9x 18.5KW Variable feed speed 15-60M/MIN Operator control station Pgedpfxozwh Hwe Abueu Also if required we have a Systems TM rotary auto stacker which is avaliable at extra cost All nine heads have new upgraded power feed wheels with sprockets, chain tension rollers and alloy blade guides for improved faster production. All guards have new sawdust exhaust outlets for added fire protection. Comes with 80% of orginal dust extraction trunking and operator cross over steps. All additions/improvements costing over 20k GBP. Comes with blades. It does not come with the cross transfer deck shown in video Production of 1.8m long Feather Edge boards is circa 36 m3 sawn per hr. This is a serious piece of equipment for large volume production and it is uncommon for a such machinery to come onto the market for sale. To be collected by customer from site Northamptonshire UK. Crane lorry essential Offers in excess of £80,000 GBP

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, machine/vehicle number: .080356001, with miter cut, roller feed, and pneumatic clamping. Pgjdpfx Abo Af Nk Njuou

Condition: like new (used), Year of construction: 2014, operating hours: 2,808 h, functionality: fully functional, input voltage: 400 V, overall weight: 3,760 kg, intake manifold diameter: 200 mm, noise level: 75 dB, actuation type: manual, The machine is in like-new condition. It has only 2,880 operating hours. It can also be inspected while in operation. Podpfxjz R Uf He Abuegu

Condition: used, input voltage: 400 V, input frequency: 50 Hz, type of input current: three-phase, cutting width (max.): 260 mm, Equipment: CE marking, HESKA HES 260 metal band saw – robust band saw for metalworking For sale is a used HESKA HES 260 metal band saw. The machine is ideally suited for cutting steel, stainless steel, aluminum, and other metal profiles, tubes, and solid materials. The HESKA HES 260 is characterized by its solid construction, reliable technology, and versatile applications. Thanks to its horizontal design, it is ideal for workshops, blacksmith shops, metal fabrication companies, and general mechanical engineering. Technical data: Manufacturer: HESKA Model: HES 260 Machine number: 23244 11 Machine type: Horizontal metal band saw Cutting range round/square at 90°: 260 mm, at 45° 160 mm Miter: right/left Band speed: 15-90 m/min Saw band: approx. 3,660 × 27 × 0.9 mm Coolant system: available Drive: approx. 0.6/0.8 kW Operating voltage: 400 V Pjdpozwlhfjfx Abusgu Dimensions: approx. 2000 x 1000 x 1200 mm (L x W x H) Weight: approx. 650 kg

Condition: excellent (used), Karmetal OSA 300 x 370 PLC Controlled Fully Automatic Bandsaw Balde Speeds Variable 25 – 90m/min (Invereter) Round Section 300mm Rectangle Section 280 x 370mm Sqaure Section 280mm For sale with *Jet Machinery Ltd* Jet Machinery Stock No: #270341 Machine Serial Number: 21482 Cost: £14,950.00 + VAT Pgedpfxszuxugo Abueu Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that the above information is accurate it is not guaranteed. We advise prospective purchasers to check any vital details. Health and Safety At Work Act 1974: It is not reasonably practical for ourselves as suppliers to ensure that for your application the goods comply with requirements of the Act with respect to guarding etc. Prospective purchasers should ensure that a guarding specialist inspect the goods prior to use.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 1978, functionality: fully functional, For sale is a robust Braun Canali band saw / resaw, type 1100, manufactured in 1978. The machine is in very good used condition and is designed for professional use in sawmills or for solid wood processing. The machine is particularly suitable for cutting and resawing logs and boards and features a continuously variable feed rate and a cutting depth control. Technical data: Manufacturer: Braun Canali Type: 1100 Year of manufacture: 1978 Machine no.: 6234 Motor power: 15 kW Saw band length: 6,800 mm Saw band width: 60–100 mm Roller diameter: approx. 1,100 mm Continuously variable feed rate Weight: approx. 3,800 kg Can cut logs up to approx. 3,000 mm in length × 600 mm in diameter Equipment: Resawing device for cutting logs and boards Programmable cutting depth control ELGO Electric Type 87P Pneumatic lifting unit Cutting depth programmable – programming function currently defective Cutting depth can be adjusted manually on the control panel: 15–85 mm Heavy-duty industrial design Condition and scope of delivery as per photos Important note regarding the control system: The programmable cutting depth control is currently not functional. However, the cutting depths can be adjusted manually via the control panel from 15 to 85 mm. Additional information: The lower band saw wheel protrudes approx. 300 mm below floor level. Therefore, a corresponding floor recess is required for the installation of the machine. Overall, the machine is in very good used condition. Inspection and demonstration possible by appointment. The machine is currently still at the customer's site but would be available in the short term! Psdpfezxrtqox Abujgu Transport possible for an extra charge! The machine will be inspected before sale. For used machines with a year of manufacture of 2009 or earlier, the warranty is excluded when sold to commercial customers. Technical data and equipment may vary. Errors, prior sale and changes are subject to change. All information without guarantee.

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2023, cutting diameter 350 mm saw band length 4640 x 34 x 1,1 mm table height 860 mm Pjdpfxolf Tu Uj Abuegu 350 mm 15 - 100 m/min 4,0 kW 2800 kg 2200 x 3200 x 2200 mm Display Model Current list price: 55,910 euros Fully automatic band saws with a two-column guide system for production cuts, particularly in materials that are difficult to machine and solid stock. With this machine, MEP offers you a machine that is at the highest technical level and, thanks to the use of the highest-quality materials, features an unmatched, robust, and torsionally rigid structure. An extremely robust saw frame made of gray cast iron provides the necessary stability, which leads to impressive cutting results, and the sturdy gray cast iron columns on which the saw frame glides via preloaded linear guides ensure ensure the highest cutting precision even under maximum load. The modern machine control system (MEP NC 5.0) offers the user maximum ease of operation and ensures trouble-free operation. (Monitoring/Evaluation/Correction in real time) MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE > The two operating modes (semi-automatic and automatic) enable efficient cutting under all conditions. > The control system allows for the storage of up to 100 cutting programs, each with different quantities and lengths, and minimizes programming time for frequently executed jobs. > The automatically detected starting position of the saw head reduces the setup time. > The saw headâ??s feed via linear guides driven by hydraulic cylinders with preloaded ball screws ensures reduction of mechanical vibrations during cutting and greater stability. > The automatic alignment of the front saw blade guide head based on the dimensions of the bars to be cut reduces processing time. > Saw blade tension is controlled by the brushless motor and is constantly monitored and automatically adjusted to the set minimum value. EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE > The feed system, with a 600 mm stroke, is repeatable and cuts all lengths. > The vertical roller pair allows for holding and aligning any type of bar or bundle that is fed into the machine. > The vector drive for stepless adjustment of the blade speed from 15 to 100 m/min enables the cutting of any material. > The motorized chip conveyor can be mounted to the right or left of the cutting area . FEATURES: Fully automatic control â?? NC 5.0 - Innovative (Windows CE-based) touchscreen control with additional soft- touch buttons for frequently used functions -USB port -Joystick for manual control of the axes (X-Y) -Controlled head descent with automatic compensation via a servo valve , constant monitoring of the preselected torque 4, and with precise feed rate adjustment in millimeters per minute 5 -Adjustment/preselection of the continuously variable band speed in m/min. -Band saw tension with tension monitoring and display via an electronic converter -Automatic detection of the start of the cut -Large 7" color touchscreen for displaying and selecting all machine functions and parameters, and programming in seconds. Display of detailed alarm and error messages -Numerous special functions, including executing various lengths and quantities (10 programs) as a sequence, clean cut, step-by-step execution, and much more. -Sturdy, torsion-resistant, and low-vibration saw frame made of cast steel -Carbide band guides for maximum cutting precision, hinged for easy saw band replacement -Large, adjustable cast steel idler ...

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2026, Optimum Geared Metal Band Saw OPTIsaw SD 200V For demanding sawing work Item number: 3300205 DESCRIPTION Quiet operation Sturdy cast iron construction Saw frame lowering continuously adjustable via hydraulic cylinder with throttle valve Microswitch for automatic limit stop Clearly legible scale for angle adjustment Standard with high-quality bi-metal saw blade Saw blade tension adjustable from the front via handwheel Podev Sg T Nopfx Abuogu Ball-bearing saw blade guide Robust machine base with large wheels and handy transport handle for easy relocation of the machine Adjustable material stop for series work Safety switch for the saw blade cover Fully equipped, allowing the user to work productively immediately after commissioning TECHNICAL DATA Dimensions and Weights Length (product) approx. 1382 mm Width without material stop approx. 434 mm Width/Depth (product) approx. 533 mm Width with Material stop approx. 533 mm Height (product) approx. 1200 mm Height of lower end position approx. 790 mm Height of upper end position approx. 1200 mm Weight (net) approx. 130 kg Work table height 530 mm Electrical data Drive motor power 0.75 kW Connection voltage 230 V Mains frequency 50 Hz Coolant pump motor power 100 W Machine data Saw blade speed(s) 26 – 80 m/min Saw blade length 2360 mm Saw blade width 19 mm Saw blade thickness 0.9 mm Cutting angle 0 – 45° Feed continuously adjustable Saw frame lift manually Cutting ranges Cutting range 0° round (solid material) 180 mm Cutting range 0° square (solid material) 180mm Cutting range 0° rectangular vertical (solid material) 180 x 240 / 50 x 300mm Cutting range +45° round (solid material) 110mm Cutting range +45° square (solid material) 150mm Cutting range +45° rectangular vertical (solid material) 110 x 170mm SCOPE OF DELIVERY Material stop Bi-metal saw blade Machine base

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2008, input voltage: 380 V, cutting height (max.): 330 mm, cutting width (max.): 370 mm, total height: 34 mm, overall weight: 2,500 kg, cutting range round steel at 90°: 330 mm, cutting range square steel at 90°: 330 mm, saw band length: 4,430 mm, saw band width: 1 mm, For sale: a professional, fully automatic band saw for metal, manufactured by the renowned Taiwanese brand Bigstone, model CF 325 (year of manufacture 2008). Its robust construction ensures high rigidity and performance, with technology comparable to top-of-the-line models from AMADA, BOMAR, and PILOUS. Here is a short video demonstrating the machine in operation: ?is=nlNDZ9sSgcR8z4iA The machine weighs a substantial 2500 kg, guaranteeing complete vibration-free operation during cutting and ensuring perfect geometry and consistent serial production. Technical condition: The machine is in 100% working order, connected in the workshop, and ready for immediate production use. The hydraulic feed system, vise clamp, and automatic cycle function flawlessly. Technical specifications: • Maximum cutting range (square): 330 mm • Maximum cutting range (rectangle): 330 x 370 mm • Cutting blade size: 4430 x 34 x 1.1 mm (wide, stable blade) • Main motor power: 5 kW (very powerful drive) • Weight: approx. 2500 kg Pgjdjxyuwnepfx Abuou Equipment and logistics: • Advanced automatic control: The controller allows for full programming of the desired number of pieces to be cut. • Multiple feed function: The machine has a function for repeating the feed stroke up to nine (9) times for a single piece. This enables fully automatic cutting of very long parts without the need to manually reposition the machine stop! • Full automatic cycle (hydraulic material feed, clamping, cutting, and ram return). • Integrated cooling system and blade cleaning brush. • LOADER INCLUDED – I have a forklift on site and can ensure the safe and efficient loading of this 2.5-ton machine onto your transport. The saw can be tested in a full automatic cycle during an inspection. Price: 26,000 PLN net (+23% VAT), negotiable. VAT invoice available.

Condition: used, The HEMA Garant 500 band saw, in as-new condition, cuts timber workpieces using a circulating band saw blade for general woodworking tasks. The swivelling table and the stop facilitate straight and angled cuts, whilst the special upper and lower roller guides guide the band saw blade along the workpiece. Technical data: - Roller diameter: 500 mm Pjdpfxez S Agge Abuegu - Motor: 1.5 kW - Cutting height: 275 mm

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2018, cutting diameter 300 mm saw band length 3660 x 27 x 0.9 mm capacity 90 degrees: flat 320 x 290 mm capacity 45 degrees: round 290 mm capacity 45 degrees: flat 260 x 280 mm capacity 60 degrees: round 200 mm capacity 60 degrees: flat 180 x 170 mm coolant capacity ca. 100 l Control SPS total power requirement 2.4 kW AC weight 904 kg range L-W-H 2410 x 1920 x 2020 mm in good conditions Original price approx. 22.000 euros Special price on request Features: - Robust electro-hydraulic miter band saw, fully automatic (INDUSTRIAL) * Fully automatic with automatic material feed * Material feed unit with recirculating ball screws - Includes PLC MITSUBISHI control unit * 20 programs, each with 15 cutting lengths + number of pieces programmable - For angles from 0° to 60°, with ball-bearing rotary table * Mitre cuts up to 45° possible in automatic mode * Mitre cuts up to 60° possible in semi-automatic mode * Manual mitre adjustment * Stepless adjustment of the mitre angle - Saw blade guides made of carbide plates - Saw feed continuously adjustable via fine throttle - Strong machine bed and torsion-free saw frame Pjdpoy Uy S Aofx Abusgu - Stepless speed adjustment of the saw blade - Coolant device - Operating instructions for machine + control system * Special accessories included: - 1x PEGAS chip conveyor

Condition: excellent (used), For sale: a professional, industrial metal-cutting bandsaw, PILOUS ARG 380 Plus S.A.F., manufactured in 2010. The machine is in continuous operation and shows normal signs of wear and tear, as can be seen in the photos (paint scratches). However, from a technical and mechanical standpoint, it is in perfect working order and ready for heavy-duty use. Key features and technical condition: • Full semi-automatic operation (S.A.F.): Fully functional hydraulic cycle. When START is pressed, the machine automatically clamps the hydraulic vise, starts the bandsaw blade, performs the cut with the set feed rate, and automatically lifts the arm and opens the vise upon completion. • Smooth speed control: The built-in inverter works flawlessly, allowing smooth adjustment of the blade speed in the range of 15–90 m/min from the control panel. • Mechanical condition: The linear guides of the arm and the rotary table are clean and undamaged. The structure is rigid, with no cracks in the housing or hidden defects. Psdpfx Ae Adyqxjbuegu • Powerful capabilities: Cuts materials and rolls with a diameter of up to 380 mm. The machine is massive (weighs approximately 1000 kg), which guarantees no vibrations and perfect cutting geometry.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2011, cutting diameter 400 mm capacity 90 degrees: flat 500 x 400 mm saw band length 6220 x 41 x 1.3 mm speed 15.0 - 150 m/min work height max. 750 mm workpiece weight ca. 250 - 300 kg/m Control MEBA NC coolant tank capacity 80.0 ltr. oil volume 30.0 ltr. power capacity 5.5 kW weight of the machine ca. ca. 2250 kg range L-W-H 3100 x 1620 x 2150 mm Current list price: approx. 50.000 euros Special price available upon request Features: - MEBA - Fully automatic "two-column linear guide system" * Fully automatic machine for 90° cuts only - User-friendly NC dialog control * With plain-text display 5.7-inch CE panel Pgedpfxjz Dkzuo Abusu * Program memory with 50 programs, each with 20 steps - Automatic material feed * Minimum cutting diameter .. Ø 5.0 mm * Residual piece length without bundle clamping .. manual 25.0 mm * Residual piece length without bundle clamping .. automatic 110 mm * Automatic movement of the clamping blocks - Rapid-feed lowering of the saw frame * With automatic material detection - Band saw speed via frequency-controlled AC drive (15-150 m/min) - Automatic cutting pressure and feed monitoring - Driven chip-clearing brush via friction wheel - Hydraulic full-stroke material clamping - Saw blade angled 3° relative to the material support surface - Saw blade idler rollers with carbide guides - Manual saw blade tensioning - Removable coolant tank for easy cleaning - Operating instructions

Condition: as good as new (ex-display), Code: N0556 Brand: HAMMER - FELDER GROUP Model: N 3800 - CE Standard Band saw for cutting wood, plastics, composite materials and various - CE Standard Single-phase motor v. 220 - Kw 1,5 Flywheel diameter 380 mm Cutting height 310 mm Tiltable cast iron table -5/+45° Table dimensions 400 x 510 mm Roller guides above and below the table Blade length 3556 mm N° 2 blades supplied User manual Overall dimensions mm 700 x 600 x 1700 h Psdpfx Aezqdymsbujgu

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2012, functionality: fully functional, Used BOMAR Ergonomic 290.250 GAC fully automatic bandsaw machine, manufactured in 2012. This professional horizontal bandsaw machine is suitable for the automatic cutting of various metal profiles, tubes, and solid materials. The machine features a fully automatic sawing cycle, a hydraulic saw arm, and a hydraulic material clamp. The cutting length and the number of parts to be cut can be set, making the machine very suitable for series production. The saw arm can be adjusted for miter cuts. Automatic cutting is possible up to 45°, while semi-automatic cutting is possible up to 60° under certain conditions. Specifications: Max. cutting diameter: Ø 250 mm Max. cutting capacity 0°: approx. 280 × 230 / 290 × 230 mm Max. square material 0°: 250 × 250 mm Saw blade: 2,910 × 27 × 0.9 mm Sawing speeds: 40 / 80 m/min Motor power: 1.1 / 1.5 kW Pjdpfxo Afp T So Abuegu Connection: 3 × 400 V Min. cutting diameter: Ø 5 mm Hydraulic up and down movement of the saw arm Hydraulic material clamp Dimensions: Length: 1,790 mm Width: 1,810 mm Height: 1,200 mm Weight: approx. 575 kg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2002, machine/vehicle number: 021203, Machine Name - Mega saw Machine Model - H1830 s.n 021203 Specification - Year 2002 3.7kw Main motor Semi- automatic 82- 250 FPM Variable speed control Max bar cutting size 460mm Pgsdpfx Aswxmhlobueu In-built coolant tank with pump and screw auger. Manual vice

Condition: like new (used), Year of construction: 2026, functionality: fully functional, Horizontal thin-cutting band saw 300 mm working width, tillable 12 degrees New 2025 model with bigger wheels and inverters on wheels. 80 mm blade width Touchscreen Schneider, PLC and Inverters Schneider Germany Podszy H Dyopfx Abuegu 22.0 KW saw motor Bigger wheels for higher cutting speed Frequency controllers on the wheels for adjustable cutting speed. For slats from 2 mm * same as new *