Used Kk-Industries Cy3R-Hhs 390-20/40 for sale (62,363)

Condition: new, bending length: 1250sheet thickness: 5.5upper roll diameter: 140 Technical specifications: - Back roll with motor - Cone bending device - Hardened and polished rolls - Body is made of St 52 steel - Main motor with brake system - Top and bottom rolls are driven bybrake electric motor, gears and gearbox system - Portable control panel  Lodpfx Ajd Ab Nvjc Aoaa - Cast iron body - Movement of the back and lower rolls up and down manually - In acccordance with CE norms Options: - Back roll powered by electric motor EURO 1.260,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Hardened rolls EURO 1.489,-- - Special voltage EURO 480,-- - Material feeding table - Lower roll is powered by electric motor We have many references!

Condition: new, bending length: 1250sheet thickness: 4.5upper roll diameter: 120 Technical specifications: - Back roll with motor Ljdpfxsd Ab Nze Ac Asaa - Cone bending device - Hardened and polished rolls - Body is made of St 52 steel - Main motor with brake system - Top and bottom rolls are driven bybrake electric motor, gears and gearbox system - Portable control panel  - Cast iron body - Movement of the back and lower rolls up and down manually - In acccordance with CE norms Options: - Back roll powered by electric motor EURO 1.166,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Hardened rolls EURO 823,-- - Special voltage EURO 480,-- - Material feeding table - Lower roll is powered by electric motor We have many references!

Condition: new, pressure: 125bending length: 3200column width: 2655motor: 11slide stroke - max.: 200Machine Model: Nominal Force: 125 kNBending Length: 3200 mmDistance Between Columns: 2655 mmThroat Depth: 400 mmSlider Stroke: 200 mmMax Opening: 455 mmSlider Down Speed: 180 mm/sSlider Return Speed: 160 mm/sSlider Working Speed: 13 mm/sMain Motor Power: 11 kWCNC System: ZY68Number of Control Axes: 4+1Oil Tank Capacity: 300 L Laedpfx Acewacqxe Aea Back Gauge XX-Axis Travel: 600 mmX-Axis Speed: 200 mm/sPositioning Accuracy: ±0.10 mmRepeat Positioning Accuracy: ±0.015 mmMotor Power: 0.85 kW Back Gauge RR-Axis Travel: 150 mmR-Axis Speed: 100 mm/sPositioning Accuracy: ±0.10 mmRepeat Positioning Accuracy: ±0.015 mm Dimensions:Length: 3450 mmWidth: 1580 mmHeight: 2550 mmWeight: 7100 kg Delem T53 Control System (Additional ¤5,000)

Condition: new, pressure: 40bending length: 1600column width: 1980motor: 4slide stroke - max.: 150opening width: 370CNC Press break KK Industries 40x1600 4 Axis Y1-Y2-X-R mit CNC Bombing Technical Parameters:Nominal Pressing Force: 63 kN Bending Length: 1600 mm Distance Between Columns: 1980 mm Throat Depth: 250 mm Slider Stroke: 150 mm Maximum Opening: 370 mm Slider Down Speed: 180 mm/s Slider Return Speed: 150 mm/s Slider Working Speed: 15 mm/s Main Motor Power: 4 kW CNC System: ZY68 Number of Control Axes: 4+1 Oil Tank Capacity: 90 L Back Gauge:X-Axis:X-Axis Travel: 600 mm X-Axis Speed: 200 mm/s Positioning Accuracy: ±0.10 mm Repeat Positioning Accuracy: ±0.015 mm Motor Power: 0.85 kW R-Axis:R-Axis Travel: 150 mm R-Axis Speed: 100 mm/s Positioning Accuracy: ±0.10 mm Repeat Positioning Accuracy: ±0.015 mm Dimensions and Weight:Length: 1850 mm Lodpfowacq Esx Ac Asaa Width: 1250 mm Height: 2180 mm Weight: 2700 kg Motor Power (additional): 0.85 kW Delem T53 Control System (additional cost 5,000¤)

Condition: new, pressure: 160bending length: 3200column width: 2655daylight: 400motor: 11slide stroke - max.: 200repeat accuracy: 0,015precision of position: 0,10CNC Press Brake 3200 mm x 160 t Standard Equipment:Sturdy construction for high stability and precision. CNC Axes: Y1, Y2, X, and R axes for precise control and accurate bending operations. Motorized CNC crowning device with CNC control for precise adjustments. CNC control system from the manufacturer (similar to Delem) for user-friendly operation and high flexibility. Back gauge with linear guide and ball screw, equipped with 4 back gauge fingers for precise material positioning. 2 sheet metal support arms for ergonomic handling of the material. Laser protection device on the upper beam to ensure safety during operation. Quick clamping for upper tooling for fast and easy tool change. Upper tooling system: Promecam Amada, split and offset for maximum flexibility. Lodpfx Acsv S Npye Asaa Multi V die system: Both Promecam and Amada systems are compatible. CE safety equipment to comply with all relevant safety regulations.

Condition: new, pressure: 200bending length: 3200column width: 2700daylight: 400stroke lenght (max.): 200column throat depth: 350messurements (LxWxH): 37000 x 1700 x 2700weight approx.: 14.000 Laedpfx Acjtvhxmo Asa

Condition: new, pressure: 200bending length: 3200column width: 2700daylight: 400stroke lenght (max.): 200column throat depth: 350messurements (LxWxH): 37000x1700x2700weight approx.: 14.000COVERS DAMAGED DURING TRANSPORT. Standard equipment: Laodpfottxh Nox Ac Aea ----- CNC axes Y1, Y2, X and R axis CNC crowning device motorized with CNC control CNC control original DELEM DA 58 T touchscreen 15 inches Back gauge with linear guide and ball screw Sheet metal support arms on linear guides Laser protection device on the upper beam quick upper tool clamping Tool system Upper tool Promecam Amada split offset Mulit V matrix system both Promecam Amada CE protective equipment various options available                                                                                                                           KK Industries GmbH  There's something for everyone!

Condition: new, pressure: 200bending length: 3200column width: 2700daylight: 400stroke lenght (max.): 200column throat depth: 350messurements (LxWxH): 37000 x 1700 x 2700weight approx.: 14.000 Laodetvhxispfx Ac Asa

Condition: new, pressure: 200bending length: 3200column width: 2700daylight: 400stroke lenght (max.): 200column throat depth: 350messurements (LxWxH): 37000x1700x2700weight approx.: 14.000motor: 15COVERS DAMAGED DURING TRANSPORT. Standard equipment: ----- CNC axes Y1, Y2, X and R axis CNC crowning device motorized with CNC control CNC control original DELEM DA 58 T touchscreen 15 inches Back gauge with linear guide and ball screw Sheet metal support arms on linear guides Laser protection device on the upper beam quick upper tool clamping Tool system Upper tool Promecam Amada split offset Mulit V matrix system both Promecam Amada CE protective equipment various options available                                                                                                                           KK Industries GmbH Laodpjtq Nm Nsfx Ac Aja  There's something for everyone!

Condition: good (used), Schmedt PraForm HHS 20 Book Press Book press with groove burner. Very good condition. The machine came from a school. Manufactured by Schmedt, Germany. Technical specifications: Maximum format: 350 x 380 x 110 mm Laedpfxey Ehm Ns Ac Aoa Weight: 250 kg Power supply: 380V Flexible temperature control.

Condition: new, pressure: 100motor: 15daylight: 500stroke lenght (max.): 400table diamension: 800 x 600tappet area: 800 x 600table height: 850messurements (LxWxH): 1.300 x 2.000 x 2.750weight approx.: 5.500oil filling: 200 Control / Key switch:         1. setup mode Manual without light sensor(max. 10mm. /sec. speed). 2. automatic (full speed) with light sensor Main cylinder: Ø 230mm. Auxiliary cylinder: 2 pcs. Ø 50 x 30mm. Auxiliary guide: 2 pcs. Ø 50mm. Motor: 11kw. - 15hp. ( IE-3 ) Pump: 23Liter / ASC. Speed : flow 110mm./sec. - return 200mm./sec. - Pressure : 9 mm/sec. Installation height: 500mm. Stroke length: 400mm. Table top: 800 x 600 - (with T - grooves) Plunger plate: 800 x 600 - (with T - grooves) Table height: 850mm. (Floor to table top upper edge) ----- Accessories Hydraulics:           Hydraulic control block & accessories: REXROTH Pressure adjustment via PLC.  (10 - 60 tons) Speed adjustable via PLC. Air cooler Pre-fill valve Ledpfom Nntysx Ac Aoaa Accessories control: Siemens S7-1200 Main control box   Swivel control panel Safety PLC. - SICK Light sensors SICK 700 + 150mm. Linear scale for adjusting the stroke length 9 PLC screen - Siemens (German & English) Movable two-hand control Ethernet connection for remote maintenance Alarm annunciator for malfunctions (candlestick & sound) 2-fold workspace lighting 8 free ON & OFF buttons on the PLC. for external connections The press complies with the machine directives Hydraulic proportional valves Dual channel cable protection Instruction manual & parts list (German + English) With side safety door (doors can be moved backwards)

Condition: new, pressure: 100motor: 11daylight: 500stroke lenght (max.): 400Tappet adjustment: 790 x 600table height: Fußboden zu Tischplatte Oberkannte - 850messurements (LxWxH): 1.300 x 2.000 x 2.750weight approx.: 5.500oil filling: 200Type: Hydraulic C-Frame PressCapacity: 100 tons at 230 barControl / Key Switch Modes:Setup Mode – Manual operation without light sensor Automatic Mode – Full speed with integrated light sensor Hydraulic System:Main Cylinder: Ø 230 mm Lodpfx Aewrkctsc Aoaa Auxiliary Cylinders: 2 pcs, Ø 50 x 30 mm Auxiliary Guides: 2 pcs, Ø 50 mm Motor: 11 kW / 15 HP Pump: 16 cc, 23 L/min – Helical gear pump Speed:Approach: 110 mm/sec Return: 200 mm/sec Pressure phase: 9 mm/sec Machine Dimensions:Daylight Opening: 500 mm Stroke Length: 400 mm Ram Plate: 790 x 600 mm (with T-slots) Table Plate: 790 x 600 mm (with T-slots) Table Height: 850 mm (from floor to top of table) Hydraulic Equipment:REXROTH hydraulic control block & components Pressure adjustable via PLC (20 – 100 tons) Speed adjustable via PLC Air oil cooler Pre-fill valve Pressure hold valve Control System:Siemens S7-1200 PLC Main control cabinet Safety PLC (SICK) Light curtains (SICK – 700 mm) Linear encoder for stroke adjustment 10” PLC touchscreen – BEIJER (German & English) Movable two-hand control unit Ethernet connection for remote support Visual and acoustic fault alarms Dual work area lighting In full compliance with EN 693 machine safety regulations Side safety doors (outward opening) Hydraulic proportional valves Dual-channel safety control User manual & parts list (German) Oil Volume: 220 L (Tank capacity: 250 L)Total Weight: approx. 5,500 kgOverall Dimensions: 1300 x 2000 x 2750 mmColor: RAL 7035 Light Grey & RAL 7016 Anthracite Grey Besichtigung unter Strom bei uns in Böheimkirchen 3071 (Neustiftgasse 34) möglich.

Condition: new, sheet length: 1360sheet thickness: 3Standard Accessories: NC control system Programmable motorized backgauge with 750 mm travel Shadow line illumination 1 pcs squaring arm with scale 2 pcs sheet support arms 1 pcs sheet support arm (for models 1106, 1306, 1505) Ledpfx Aexx D Efoc Aoaa Finger protection Ball transfer table Easy front access blade gap adjustment Ballscrew mechanism Cut counter Portable foot control with emergency stop button Photocell safety sensor on rear guards

Year of construction: 2016, condition: used, KK PULLTESTER KKP03A / series 6 The KK pulltester is a measuring device for quality assurance in the graphic industry. It measures, with extremely high precision the bonding-adhesion of individual pages of cataloges, paperback books, journals, brochures and books. The number of pages to be measured, page numbers, order number and book block length are programmed before the measurements are taken. Technical specifications: Language: english book block format width: approx. 5 - 35 cm Lsdpewcd Iqofx Ac Aeaa book block format length: approx. 7 - 40 cm book block format thickness: approx. 7 cm

Condition: new, Shaft diameter: 580working speed: 3-6motor power: 30length: 2760width: 2310heigth: 2680weight approx.: 14400 Technical specifications: Welded steel construction frame 3 rollers are driven Hardened and ground shafts made of high-strength special steel Lsdpoh Alh Hofx Ac Asaa Rollers are hardened and ground Horizontal and vertical working position Hardened standard rollers Mobile control panel Angular side guide rollers Brake motor equipped for precision bending Digital displays (2 pieces) Options: Digital display STANDARD NC unit 10 screen EURO 11,500.00

Condition: new, messurements (LxWxH): 0,80 x 0,85 x 1,20weight approx.: 0,610total power requirements: 4sheet thickness: 6Details: Hydraulic drive, 6 mm at 90° (fixed) Blade length: 200 mm Notching angle: 90° Laedpfsd Ab Icex Ac Aja

Condition: new, pressure: 320bending length: 4050column width: 3550daylight: 650stroke lenght (max.): 400column throat depth: 450messurements (LxWxH): 4740x1725x3100weight approx.: 17.9004 axes (Y1, Y2, X, R): Ja alle Achsen über die Esa S640 (2D Grafik Steuerung)CNC crowning system by control: ja über die Esa S640 (2D Grafik Steuerung)motor power: 22 Standard equipment: KK Kletzer Europe We have put together a high-quality model for Europe. The CNC press brake KK kletzer Made in Turkey. Model KKI EUROPE XL The powerful EUROPA XL press brake is characterized by its high precision, accuracy and versatility. Europa XL has a very large installation height and, as a result, a large stroke (cylinder travel). The projection is also above average in order to restrict yourself as little as possible. We rely on quality, which is also reflected in the management. As a standard control we have the high-quality Esa S640 (2D graphic control) Furthermore, the press brake KKI Europa XL is equipped with Y1, Y2, X and R CNC axes via the control. Of course, the CNC crowning control Esa S640 (2D graphic control) is also included. We don't make any compromises when it comes to the upper tool and the die either the CNC press brake KKI EUROPA XL with quality tools from EUROSTAMP Italy. Of course, every machine is only as good as the service. For this reason we set our focus on highly qualified employees with many years of experience in the CNC sheet metal processing sector. CNC axes Y1, Y2 , X and R axis Ledpofrqhpsfx Ac Asaa Esa S640 (2D graphic control) Back gauge with double linear guide and ball screw Motorized crowning device with CNC control 2 pieces of support arms in front, heavy version, height adjustment with hand wheel, from 175 tons heavy version on linear guide Laser safety device on the upper beam CE protective equipment various options available Other controls: ESA 640 2D 15'' touch screen control                                         ¤ 4,520.00 inkl. ESA 675 W 3D 21'' touch screen control (Windows Base)         ¤ 6,485.00 DELEM 66 T 2D 17'' touch screen control (Windows Base)       ¤ 10,165.00 DELEM 69 T 3D 17'' touch screen control (Windows Base)       ¤ 16.350,00 KK Industries GmbH There's something for everyone!

Condition: new, pressure: 220bending length: 4050column width: 3550daylight: 600stroke lenght (max.): 350column throat depth: 450messurements (LxWxH): 4740x2290x3050weight approx.: 13.3504 axes (Y1, Y2, X, R): Ja alle Achsen über die Esa S630 (2D Grafik Steuerung)CNC crowning system by control: ja über die Esa S630 (2D Grafik Steuerung)motor power: 22 Standard equipment: KK Kletzer Europe We have put together a high-quality model for Europe. The CNC press brake KK kletzer Made in Turkey. Model KKI EUROPE XL The powerful EUROPA XL press brake is characterized by its high precision, accuracy and versatility. Europa XL has a very large installation height and, as a result, a large stroke (cylinder travel). The projection is also above average in order to restrict yourself as little as possible. We rely on quality, which is also reflected in the management. As a standard control we have the high-quality Esa S640 (2D graphic control) Furthermore, the press brake KKI Europa XL is equipped with Y1, Y2, X and R CNC axes via the control. Of course, the CNC crowning control Esa S640 (2D graphic control) is also included. We don't make any compromises when it comes to the upper tool and the die either the CNC press brake KKI EUROPA XL with quality tools from EUROSTAMP Italy. Of course, every machine is only as good as the service. For this reason we set our focus on highly qualified employees with many years of experience in the CNC sheet metal processing sector. CNC axes Y1, Y2 , X and R axis Esa S640 (2D graphic control) Back gauge with double linear guide and ball screw Lasdped Ehicsfx Ac Aoa Motorized crowning device with CNC control 2 pieces of support arms in front, heavy version, height adjustment with hand wheel, from 175 tons heavy version on linear guide Laser safety device on the upper beam CE protective equipment various options available Other controls: ESA 640 2D 15'' touch screen control                                           ¤ 4,529.00 ESA 675 W 3D 21'' touch screen control (Windows Base)           ¤ 6,345.00 DELEM 66 T 2D 17'' touch screen control (Windows Base)         ¤ 10,024.00 DELEM 69 T 3D 17'' touch screen control (Windows Base)          ¤ 16.356,-- KK Industries GmbH There's something for everyone!

Condition: new, bending length: 3100sheet thickness: 4upper roll diameter: 170 Technical specifications: - Back roll with motor - Cone bending device - Hardened and polished rolls - Body is made of St 52 steel - Asymmetrical design for perfect bending - Top and bottom rolls are driven by brake electric motor and planetary gearboxes in gear system - Portable control panel  - In acccordance with CE norms Options: - Lower roll powered by electric motor EURO 1.650,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Extended rolls for profile rolls EURO 966,-- - Profile rolls EURO 1.190,-- Laodpfxed Ab Nmo Ac Aja We have many references!

Condition: new, pressure: 150motor: 15daylight: 500stroke lenght (max.): 400table diamension: 900 x 600tappet area: 900 x 600table height: 850messurements (LxWxH): ca. 1300 + (300 Schaltschrank) x 2000 x 3200weight approx.: 8000oil filling: 400Hydraulic C-Frame PressType: C-Frame, hydraulicCapacity: Pressing force: 150 tons at 240 bar Return force: 30 tons at 150 bar Control ModesMode 1: Setup mode without light sensor Mode 2: Automatic single stroke with light sensor Hydraulic SystemMain cylinder: Ø 270 mm Auxiliary cylinders: 2 pcs Ø 70 x 40 mm Guiding columns: 4 pcs Ø 50 mm Main motor: 15 kW / 22 HP (IE3) Pump: 45 cc, 65 l/min – REXROTH Tank capacity: 500 liters Oil volume: 400 liters Auxiliary motor: 2.2 kW / 3 HP Auxiliary pump: included Laedpfx Acewzzzfs Asa Oil tank air cooler: included Adjustable Speeds (via PLC)Advance stroke: 120 mm/s Return stroke: 140 mm/s Pressing phase: 13 – 5 mm/s Mechanical DataDaylight (open height): 500 mm (distance between ram and table) Stroke length: 400 mm Table depth: 650 mm Throat depth: 350 mm Table height: 850 mm (floor to top of table) Plate DimensionsTable plate: 900 x 600 x 120 mm (with T-slots – customizable) Ram plate: 900 x 600 x 300 mm (with T-slots & spring welding) Hydraulic AccessoriesHydraulic block & valves by REXROTH Pre-fill valve Hydraulic and mechanical ram locking at TDC Pressure & speed adjustable via PLC Side safety doors (slidable towards rear) Control & ElectronicsMain control cabinet PLC: Siemens S7–1200 Safety PLC: SICK Swiveling control panel with soft starter Mobile two-hand control Light sensors: SICK (700 mm + 130 mm) Stroke measurement: 500 mm linear scale HMI: 9 Siemens display (storage for up to 500 tools) Remote maintenance module: Secomea Dual LED work area lighting 8 free I/O ports on PLC (for external systems like robot or coil feeder) General SpecificationsPower supply: 400 V / 50 Hz Standards: Complies with EN 693 machine directive Control safety: Dual-channel secured Valves: Hydraulic proportional valves Documentation: Operating manual, parts list & maintenance plan (in German) Warranty: 12 months (optional 24 months) Paint color: Main frame RAL 7035 – light grey Dimensions & WeightOverall dimensions (W x D x H): approx. 1300 mm + 300 mm control cabinet x 2000 mm x 3200 mm Weight: approx. 8,000 kg

Condition: new, sheet length: 3100sheet thickness: 13prebending: 10total power requirements: 15weight approx.: 10messurements (LxWxH): 4,88x1,16x1,18 Illustration Similar Roller diameter (top/bottom): Ø270 mm Bending length: 3,100 mm Maximum sheet thickness for normal bending: 13 mm Maximum sheet thickness for prebending: 10 mm Prebending / bending radius: 8 mm / 10 mm (radius calculated as Ød × 1.5) CE Standard Variable speed Control unit – 7 Touch Screen Conical bending Induction hardened rolls Side rolls positioning via electronically synchronized PLC Bottom roll rigid mechanically synchronized Safety mechanism for welding on the machine Stress-relieved steel construction body Rolls seated with bearings Top roll hydraulic opening Top and bottom rolls driven by hydraulic motor and planetary gearbox Electrical and hydraulic overload protection Hydraulic pressure adjustable bottom rolls Lsdped Ab H Ejfx Ac Aeaa

Condition: new, sheet thickness: max. 30 (bei 280 MPa) / max. 22 (bei 360 MPa)total power requirements: 124weight approx.: 54000messurements (LxWxH): 8000 x 2300 x 4700CAPACITYMax. thickness (280 MPa) mm 30 Max. thickness (360 MPa) mm 22 Max. flat plate diameter mm 7000 Min. flanging diameter (ØD) mm 1700 Min. flanging diameter (with additional manual   device) (ØD) mm 1200 Flanging (knuckle) radius (r) mm 120-850 Max. head height (H) mm 1535 Max. torispherical head diameter (ØD) mm 6000 Max. elliptical head diameter (ØD) mm 5500 Total power kW 124 SIZELength mm 8000 Width mm 2300 Height mm 4700 Weight (Approx.) Ton 54    QUOTATION SCOPE OF SUPPLY & PRICING FMB 30x7000 FLANGING MACHINE Special steel and heat treated (one) knuckle roll – R100 mm Special steel and heat treated (one) flanging roll Hydraulic bottom support rollers adjustable in height Manual centralized auto-lubrication Control panel placed on the body Hydraulic (air) oil cooler Variable speed of rotation Automatic flanging feature (called CNC/NC by other manufacturers) Lightning for flanging area Telescopic and stainless protection cover sheet for bottom head holder channel Top and bottom head holders driven by hydro-motors Rear lifting cylinder Lasdjx Dfmhopfx Ac Aoa Roll changing device

Condition: new, bending length: 1600sheet thickness: 8upper roll diameter: 170 Technical specifications: - Back roll with motor - Cone bending device - Hardened and polished rolls - Body is made of St 52 steel - Asymmetrical design for perfect bending - Top and bottom rolls are driven by brake electric motor and planetary gearboxes in gear system - Portable control panel  - In acccordance with CE norms Options: Ledpod Ab Nqefx Ac Ajaa - Lower roll powered by electric motor EURO 1.650,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Extended rolls for profile rolls EURO 966,-- - Profile rolls EURO 1.190,-- We have many references!

Condition: new, bending length: 1550sheet thickness: 3.5upper roll diameter: 110 Technical specifications: - Back roll with motor - Cone bending device - Body is made of St 52 steel - Main motor with brake system - Top and bottom rolls are driven bybrake electric motor, gears and gearbox system - Portable control panel  - Cast iron body - Movement of the back and lower rolls up and down manually - In acccordance with CE norms Options: - Back roll powered by electric motor EURO 1.166,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Hardened rolls EURO 995,-- Ledpfx Asd Ab N Dsc Aoaa - Special voltage EURO 480,-- - Material feeding table - Lower roll is powered by electric motor We have many references!

Condition: new, sheet thickness: 3.3bending length: 1050upper roll diameter: 90 Technical specifications: - Cast iron body - By manuel or motorised (optional) bending - Opening top roll to side after bending for taking out the material easily - Cone bending device - Movement of the back and bottom rolls up and down manually with hand wheel - Portable control panel in order to control material from required  locations with foot pedal  - In acccordance with CE norms. Options: - Back roll with motor EURO 825,-- - Digital readout for displaying position of the backroll EURO 1.010,-- - Body cover EURO 274,-- Laedpfx Aod Ab T Dsc Aja - Hardened rolls EURO 480,-- We have many references!